Have any of you been in Richmond on a Friday or Saturday night lately? Any St Margarets resident who enjoys being in the midst of that drunken mayhem can easily walk the short distance and join it. PLEASE lets keep it out of our ‘village’. What hours does the wine bar intend to open?I can’t see it mentioned anywhere?And how many does it hope to cater for?

Ruth at 15 September 2005 12:09 PM

have any of you visited Richmond on a Friday or Saturday night lately?Any St Margarets resident who enjoys that drunken mayhem can walk the short distance and join in.Lets keep it out of ‘the village’. What hours are plann3ed for the wine bar? And how many will be catered for?I can’t find any reference.

James at 15 September 2005 12:14 PM

I so agree with the above comments. I have stopped going into Richmond on Friday and Saturdays nights. Has anyone tried coming home on an H37 on a Friday night?

Louise at 15 September 2005 12:35 PM

I have to say I don’t think it is the worst idea. I don’t get the sense this is going to be some 21 year old singles venue. They will be serving food and might be a nicer upscale . I would rather see a unique local business than another big chain come in and take over the space. They appear to have addressed many issues from the first proposal and appear to be sensitive to the communities concerns. I agree there are still some questions to be answered.

angela at 15 September 2005 1:13 PM

It may not start out as a singles venue. But once open what is to stop it becoming one? This is a big, big space (over 400 square metres) that can fit a lot of people in. St Margarets is already becoming a hang out. This can only increase the problem however ‘nice’ the wine bar sets out to be.

louise at 15 September 2005 5:30 PM

Having looked at the plans - ‘wine bar’ is not just under Streets it’s under Tesco’s as well and looks as thought it will seat well over 150 people. Sounds more like a club to me.

Ben at 17 September 2005 10:57 AM

I have 3 year old twins. We regularly use Gymboree. I am not happy about a wine bar next door!

kate at 19 September 2005 2:16 PM

Tesco is already causing huge traffic problems and congestion with illegal parking which is dangerous for pedestrians, especially children.
People are parking on the other side of the road to Tesco half on the pavement,too.The H37 bus service cannot stop at its halt.

Tesco deliveries are arriving at all times of the day and evening and causing noise nusiance.

Philippa at 20 September 2005 12:37 PM

This end of St Margarets is becoming so congested. I think the wine bar might be the last straw. This application looks quite smart but the bottom line is about making money.

Mike at 20 September 2005 1:04 PM

In spite of the poll results, there are more positive comments registered on the council planning website than negative. Is this due to delay or inertia?

Trevor at 20 September 2005 1:18 PM

Enough is enough! I think we should keep late night drinking and entertainment out of St Margaret’s.I agree whole heartedly with other resident’s comments regarding drunken mayhem in Richmond. Let’s keep it out of St Margaret’s which is becoming more congested and noisy by the day. Once this change of use is allowed anything is possible in the future and I feel it will become a ‘club’ very quickly.

Bernice Addis at 20 September 2005 1:24 PM

Just read Grapespots prospectus, and I quite like their concept especially as a 30’s odd single woman. It’s the right idea but in totally the wrong place. I live locally (Moormead) and certainly don’t want anything like it in St Margarets Road. Apart from any parking considerations - and it’s silly to think people won’t drive there - we’ve already got one establishment out of context with the community ie: Tescos, and soon to follow Superdrug. While I might like the concept I didn’t come to live in St Margarets 3 years ago for that. It would totally change the feel of the place. I can’t believe that the Council is going to let this happen, and if they do I shan’t vote for the Conservatives next time, it will be comeback Liberals all is forgiven!

Maggie at 20 September 2005 7:50 PM

There are enough reasons for me not to vote conservative again, ‘our’ local councillors just use St.Margarets as a vote pool. They are doing thier level best to spoil St.Margarets, they have done nothing about the Tesco delivery situation,have you ever tried getting a buggy past Tesco staff when they are unloading the cages ?
The councillors are more interested in collecting the taxes from these new companies and not interested in how we residents feel. If they allow this wine bar to go ahead they will have once again not listened to the residents.

Mrs. Ward at 20 September 2005 9:25 PM

Agree with your first point about the council, but I think an upmarket wine bar will be good for the area. Quality not quantity.

James at 20 September 2005 10:50 PM

No disrespect to this excellent and needed community website, but having looked at the plans for the application I think ‘wine bar under Streets’ doesn’t quite tell the whole story. It makes it sound as if its going to be a few of us nice middle class St Margarets people sitting in a cosy sophisticated venue tucked away in a basement. The proposed venue extends considerably further than Streets basement. I’m sure that whilst the proprietors do want to create an upmarket establishment this is decidely not the place to do it. Okay I put my hands up to shopping in Tescos, but that doesn’t mean to say I want it there. As far as I’m concerned I’d be happy for them to close tomorrow. I noticed that Grapespot called this bit of the St Margarets Road a busy high street. The only think that’s busy about it is the traffic at certain times, and the number of people using Tescos especially when they come back from work in the evening. I don’t know much about planning but I know a bit about quality of life - and it’s obvious from previous comments and what I’ve seen so far from your poll, it’s not wanted here. It’s bad enough having to put up with the possibility of the St Margarets Tavern extending its hours (and I use that too!). I went to the Crown Road market at the weekend - great. I went to the Fair on Moormead earlier in the year - great. That’s what St Margarets is all about, and that’s why I live here. Someone wrote that there aren’t that many objections on the councils website. I suspect that’s because most people have more faith in putting across their point of view on our own community website based on past experience. This is a community issue and on this occasion the Council have to listen to us, or as far as I’m concerned they’re on their bikes next year.

Peter at 21 September 2005 9:29 AM

I made the point about using the council website for comments because that is where complaints need to be for councillors who will take the decision to be able to take any notice.

Anecdotal evidence from the poll may be useful if it can not be abused, but the applicant is bound to challenge whether it is biased. My own feeling is that a public meeting on this subject is needed. And we need to ask ourselves whether a wine bar be worse than, say, Richer Sounds taking over the space?

Trevor at 21 September 2005 11:29 AM

Trevor I can see where you’re coming from, ie: lesser of other evils - but….there is somewhat of a difference between Richer Sounds and a 160 odd seater ‘wine bar’ that could be open to all hours, with all the consequences that alcohol brings. I also take your point about people visiting the Council’s official site, but some like me may have also written to them. As to ‘abuse’, yes this website could be abused as can the Councils irrespective of whether you are giving them more personal details. I think most people are reasonable and know that things have to change but life is a balance and the Phelps block lettings are trying to push the scales too far the wrong way.

Peter at 21 September 2005 12:40 PM

Peter,
You are right that I lost sight of conventional routes of complaint. Apologies for that.
As to the problems of increased alcohol outlets in the area I agree, but I would like to hear from Grapespot and Robert Phelps at a public meeting more about why they believe these and any other plans may be appropriate here, as I did hear previously that Mr Phelps was hoping to find tenants who would be sympathetic to the locale.

Trevor at 21 September 2005 1:59 PM

I apologise to other readers as I don’t want to turn this into a duologue between Trevor and myself. However, having carefully gone through all the Grapespot paperwork from this and the previous application, I think that they at least can’t be faulted for clearly setting out their reasoning for wanting to be in 125-131 St Margarets Road. Also putting on my business hat I can see Mr Phelp’s problem. Large area to be disposed of that no local trader could afford. Looking back at the paperwork for the previous application he couldn’t have been too sympathetic to his neighbours as the entrance would have been in the residential road just behind the shop fronts. Ok so the guy has a problem renting out his commercial property because of its size and location - as a business man I sympathise. But you can’t have one person changing the face of a community, which he’s already partially done - no matter how sorry I might feel for him. I’ll shut up now and give others a chance to air their views!

Peter at 21 September 2005 3:39 PM

I would like to know who the business men who propose to open this bar are and whether they have any experience in this sort of venture. If not how do they know they can make it work? and if it doesn’t work how can they be sure that they won’t have to introduce things like happy hour and draught beer? Most other big pubs and clubs seem to have to do this. What if they change their minds about the type of establishment they want to run? Or sell it to a big organisation? Once we have licensed premises in this big space the doors are open. These guys might be reasonable, respectable, concerned and all the rest of it but what about the next lot? What if they fall out with each other - not unheard of considering the stress of running a business these days (speaking from experience!). I think we need to know more about who exactly is proposing this, what their backgrounds are and how much they know about what they are doing.

Sue at 21 September 2005 4:31 PM

Sue,

We are trying to get an interview with the men behind the wine bar early next week. I am going to ask them to set up a public meeting as well, due to the amount of comments and activity here.

If anyone has additional question you would like me to ask them, please do so here or email me directly at peter@stmgrts.org.uk.

Thanks,

Peter

Peter from stmgrts.org.uk at 21 September 2005 4:56 PM

What’s the point in lowering the tone of St Margaret’s even more with this proposed Chav magnet.
As if we haven’t got enough social degradation going on, we don’t need more of Richmond’s soaring street crime and violence.
The plans for this wine bar must be terminated and rejected immediately; I can’t imagine local residents will not be affected by load noise, inconvenienced by the lack of parking not to mention security to property and vandalisation. It’s all almost inevitable.

Richard Wigington at 21 September 2005 5:20 PM

I welcome an upmarket, grown up venue. The whole point is that people like me don’t want the ‘Richmond & Twickenham Friday night experience’ and this sounds good to me. I think that the sort of people that will go to this wine bar are the very ones complaining about it and the yobs we don’t want will not be interested in it.

sally at 22 September 2005 1:20 AM

The most important point being made here is that this wine bar might only be a beginning. Once we allow a large licensed club in the middle of St Margarets anything could happen.

Most of us are annoyed by Tescos - but probably most of us use it - and more importantly there was nothing we could do to stop it. The same goes for Superdrug. All we can to now is to press them very hard to keep their promises regarding delivery times, size of lorry etc.

Once this wine bar has gone ahead it will be too late. The time to ask questions and raise objections is now. They might be good neighbours - but what if they are not? They might only attract reasonable, well behaved customers, but what if they don’t? People might walk to it - but what if they don’t? What hours will it be open? Will that be the next thing we have to fight - opening hours till 3 or 4 in the morning? How many customers are they hoping to attract? How often will they have private functions? What sort of entertainment might they provide? What about Rugby days - will they just forego the chance to make money? Hundreds of peope attending any function or event in one evening make a lot of noise - no matter how hard they try not to. This is not a little local bar - it is a big venue.

I think we need to ask ourselves what sort of environment we want to live in and what we are prepared to to about it. Surely it is safer and more sensible to position this sort of large drinking club in a town centre, away from families and residents who want a peaceful, quiet life. If we want to go out locally to eat or drink there are plenty of places. There are several resaurants and bars within minutes of St Margarets Village. Many of them have been nominated for local and national awards, there is a good variety and as a woman I can say there are plenty of places where I am completely happy to go.

We couldn’t stop Tesco or Superdrug but we can stop this. Lets wish these guys - whoever they are - every success but let them take their venture somewhere more suitable.

Louise at 22 September 2005 9:52 AM

Objecting on the Council website is essential - Whilst all of the objections raised during the Tesco debacle were ignored, and continue to be ignored (The Council’s Cabinet has overruled local objections, and given the go ahead for a much longer, 1 hour loading bay outside Tesco - see http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/council_government_and_democracy/council/decision_making_council/cabinet_member_decisions/view_member_decisions.htm), it is technically the correct initial forum for dissent. Also you get formal notification of the Planning Committee meeting.

After that, various other forms of hell raising are probably appropriate -

Complaining here is good, as it is the focus for community issues.

Wrting to the papers seems to help. Sarah Woods at the Rich and Twick has sympatheitically featured the Tesco issue on a number of occasions (email: swoods@london.newsquest.co.uk)

Personally, I think our local councillor Annie Hambridge has done some great work on the Tesco issue - She has put St Margarets first, and her party second, although much of her work remains hidden behind the scenes - Email her with objections, and she will raise them at Council level (cllr.ahambidge@richmond.gov.uk)

Get neighbours and friends to write to the Council.

And we should all go to the Planning Meeting.

Incidentally, and slightly OT, if you see Tesco lorries parked illegally, phone Sureway, and take photos - I am tracking it on my blog at http://updatebysms.blogspot.com/

Nigel at 23 September 2005 11:47 AM

St Margaret’s is a great place and I wouldn’t live anywhere else, but it is a suburb of London, not a cute little ‘Village’. We can’t sit here being NIMBYs fighting off all change. I like the fact that there is a bit of life here, such as the fair last Saturday, and a diverse selection of decent places to eat and drink makes it easier to stay and enjoy our home ground and is what a community is all about.

I would also rather see a quality independent wine bar than another chain or grotty warehouse that has no interest in the local area. After all, the location is a commercial site and something will go in regardless, like it or not. At least the wine bar remains answerable to the licensing committee, police and us. I seriously doubt they would want to jeopardise their licence and risk what must be a large investment.

Traffic is a problem, but why vent our frustrations with Tesco on these guys? Surely they don’t want great big lorries blocking up their front entrance either and, if as they say, their deliveries are by small van at the rear then they are not going to exacerbate the problem.

sally at 24 September 2005 10:49 AM

I fully agree with the above comments.
Tesco has put profit before the community. The store layout needs an urgent review alcohol should be supervised at all times and atleast be visable fron the checkout. Groups of children can help themselves to wine and beer and leave the store with out being challenged. Tesco poses more alcohol abuse problems to the area than an upmarket wine bar would.

mark at 24 September 2005 9:28 PM

Come on Sally. Of course this is a time to be a NIMBY, we’re not talking about a cosy little wine bar here - but something that is capable of housing 160 plus people. Most people wouldn’t want this in their front yard let alone their back yard. It isn’t just a question the alcohol, although that’s very important. Tescos is there and Superdrug may be nearly there (its effects yet to be seen) but they are somewhat different to this application. Mark suggests that groups of children can easily walk out of Tescos with alcohol - but are they actually doing that? As much as I am not Tesco’s greatest fan (here or anywhere) I’ve not heard that one before, and I’m sure if they were, all the anti-Tesco lobby would have been shouting about it very loudly. I’ve seen very few comments that are rubbishing Grapespots business idea - people are saying it’s in the wrong place, and as the type of woman that they seem to be trying to woo I absolutely agree.
Now I also see a notice that tells me it goes against a Development Plan for a conservation area. Ok we all take the estate agents’ ‘village’ bit with a pinch of salt - but it is more than just a suburb to those of us that appreciate a bit of quality in our home lives.

Bridget at 24 September 2005 10:19 PM

Bridget, I have seen kids with alcohol ‘obtained’ from Tesco and reported this to the police. And I am not the only person to do so. Next time you are in Tesco look how close the wine section is to the door and the take a look at the security.

Mark at 24 September 2005 11:23 PM

On more than one occasion, I have seen groups of kids comming up from the train station, then hanging out by the closed Streets store and taking turns walking into Tesco to grab a bottle or can of something, then running back to the station!

Alan at 25 September 2005 7:48 AM

I apologise if I’m wrong about children taking alcohol from Tescos, but that still doesn’t deter from the main discussion - a large late night drinking establishment in the wrong place…..

Bridget at 25 September 2005 8:10 AM

I agree with Mark that Tesco puts profit before community, again a coherent argument to support someone independent and supposedly local (how local they are has been questioned and may be pertinent?). I don’t know if kids indeed pilfer alcohol from Tesco, though it is probably easier for them to grab something from a shop like Tesco, Broadway or Oddbins than from a bar or pub. If Streets is being used as the wine bar entrance, then the front will be lit up and presumably monitored (will there be CCTV?), not dark and secluded as it is now, removing its current role as a sheltered hangout. Also, surely kids are more likely to want a can of Special Brew than a cheeky Sauvignon Blanc from Argentina?

Bridget, don’t get me wrong. This isn’t just any suburb to me either; I chose to live here because I think it’s a superb part of London, but it is still part of London. I want quality too, which is why I like this wine bar application. It looks and sounds good and so far all my friends are for it.

I would rather enjoy this wine bar here, in St. Margarets, than venture into Richmond or Twickenham. And I still think that the obnoxious louts will not be interested in this sort of establishment, nor I expect will they be welcome. I think we should judge the merits of this application objectively and consider whether it will actually be as bad as some try to portray.

sally at 25 September 2005 10:33 AM

It is precisely for the reason that I don’t want to go into Richmond on a Friday and Saturday that I would welcome a wine bar here in St Margarets. I am very capable of enjoying a drink with friends and walking home without vomiting in a garden or waking up the enitre neighbourhood.

It is a commercial site, I would rather have an independently run establishment than another multiple. Wine bars generally do not attract young drinkers - The Red Room and Paradise Road in Richmond are nice places - very different from Henrys & Pitcher & Piano. As for ‘chav magnet’ oh please.

I would have preferred that Tesco and Superdrug did not move in. They are more likely to cause damamge to the community than a wine bar - I hope that everyone will be this exercised when Superdrug announce they want to sell newspapers and apply for a pharmacy license - with the sole intention of putting small independent traders out of business - that’s the way that our community atmosphere will be ruined.

karen at 25 September 2005 11:47 AM

I’ve read everything - all the comments on the council’s website, Grapespots submission, and all the comments here. I think the arguement is going off drift talking about Tescos/Superdrug. As others have said this is a proposed new very large venue in a residential area. Just because there might already be other large establishments - ie The St Margarets Tavern - it doesn’t follow there should be another one. It’s more potential late night noise, and more parking problems. If we assume that those ‘for’ and ‘against’ have mustered all their neighbours and friends to vote on this website, the results speak for themselves.
I’ve just looked again and it’s 203 ‘against’ and 48 ‘for’. So are 203 people all NIMBYS to use Sally’s phrase? Obviously in this instance yes, and as far as I can tell with good reason. Although I live in St Margarets I wouldn’t be personally affected by the situation of the venue - but as others have said it may be the right thing but it would be in the wrong place.

Jeff at 25 September 2005 12:17 PM

Far be it from me to personalise this whole issue. But has anyone else noticed how many of the support letters on the council website come from people in Orchard Road? Happened to notice on previous application paperwork that one of the Grapespot Directors lives there. Ah well all’s fair in love and war I suppose.

Ray at 25 September 2005 1:10 PM

The dialogue on this site reaches a new low! ‘Far from me to personalise this whole issue’ means that is exactly what you set out to do. I have not come across any director’s address in any of the applications, which makes me think you either know who one of the directors is or you were put up to this by someone who does. Who’s talking about ‘war’; that is pathetic. Rather than offer any valid comment on the issue you seem to be belittling the opinion of a group of others. If one of the directors indeed lives in Orchard Road, then I for one find some reassurance in this, as they are even more likely to be concerned for St Margaret’s if it is their home too.

sally at 25 September 2005 6:41 PM

I can’t quite believe that I am defending Tesco but I have found that since Tesco has arrived I have used my car far less. Tesco is also convenient for older people and those who can’t drive for whatever reason. It is not so prohibitavely expensive that pensioners and those on a tight budget can’t use it. I think the important point is to make sure that Tesco toe the line. We should also remember that we are thank goodness still a mixed community and have not become completely homogenised yet.

Louise at 25 September 2005 7:17 PM

Interesting comments about alcohol abuse - back to Tesco i’m afraid, they have gone one step further in making alcohol readily available to anybody who wants to help themselves - they have moved it right next to the door!

colin at 25 September 2005 7:57 PM

Sorry you’re so outraged Sally - suggest you carefully re-check all the paperwork from this and the last application. In a way you are quite right I am personalising the application as the quality of life where I live is very important to me and obviously the 200 odd other people who’ve voted No.

Ray at 25 September 2005 9:03 PM

As well as criticising the Council, Tesco’s and the potential opening of Superdrug, perhaps we ought to also be looking at the Phelps family. Some supporters of the wine bar application
are pretty critical of Tescos. But Tesco’s are there because Mr Phelps (who owns the whole plot)let them and Superdrug go there, so why are we letting him off the hook. After all he’s also going to be the landlord for any wine bar.

Gilly at 26 September 2005 6:35 AM

It seems unfair to put much responsibility on the Phelps family for Tesco. Tesco could not be refused the lease when it bought out the Hart’s /Olivers chain. It has been both a curse and a boon since. It could be less of a curse if it operated more sympathetically to the location.

The Superdrug lease was granted voluntarily, but I am not sure why it arouses such hostility. I am not convinced people will go out of their way to visit it. A delivery problem yes, but not on the scale of Tesco.

The wine bar is, however, a different business altogether. There was a ‘wine bar’ on the corner of Richmond Road in East Twickenham called Cascades. It was a nuisance as it moved down market to try to keep in business and sought later hours of opening. Will this venture follow suit? If the St Margarets Tavern does not get the hours it is asking for then we might be able to have some confidence in the new licensing act restricting such a possibility. Otherwise, it is a gamble, but what will happen if this wine bar does not go ahead? That is a question for Mr Phelps.

Trevor at 26 September 2005 8:40 AM

Cascades was bad enough, what about the place in Twickenham that turned into a pole dancing club!

Gareth at 26 September 2005 6:44 PM

We think this would be a great addition to the St Margarets area. Whilst we can understand some of the concerns, St Margarets is slowly being left behind Richmond and Twickenham as a place where local people can enjoy an evening out with real local variety in a relaxed atmosphere. Whilst there are a few pubs and a few restuarants the wine bar concept would add much needed diversity to the limited Hight St of St Margarets. The plans appear to be well thought through and sensitive to neighbouring residents concerns.Tony

tony at 26 September 2005 7:50 PM

A quiet residential street like Broadway Avenue is not the place for such a venture and the residents should not have to put with both the noise and parking disruption this will create.

phil at 27 September 2005 10:03 PM

Oh my god! I live within 50 yards of The Turks Head and have never had a problem with noise or parking (it would be just as bad without the pub), nor have I heard of problems with the St Margarets Tavern or any of the other bars in the area. This area is predominantly made up of young couples whom I am sure can handle a few drinks without disturbing the neighbourhood. Perhaps if the local residents were so “up in arms” with the smoking in public places issue than we could all breath a little easier and enjoy these places with all members of our family.

Steve at 29 September 2005 6:35 PM

Is this wine bar going to be a non-smoking venue then?

Louise at 29 September 2005 7:29 PM

I am really surprised by all this negativity.
I really welcome the prospect of an alternative venue within walking distance and I believe it would serve/suit this community well. (Or am I the only wine-lover out here?)
But then again, I don’t have a problem with our new Tesco’s - unlike all those who say that they disapprove but admit that they shop there anyway…

Mary at 29 September 2005 9:21 PM

Have you read the new interview on the main page? It tells us a more about it, of which you Louise should read.

sally at 29 September 2005 9:36 PM

Louise,

They will allow smoking at the Wine Bar. We asked that in the interview. Their answer was that, they expect the law to take care of this soon for establishments that serve food anyway, but felt it would be perceived negatively to enforce that now.

Hope this helps,

Peter

FYI: none of the principals smoke either, its more a cultural issue I think.

Peter from stmgrts.org.uk at 29 September 2005 10:47 PM